Bayonets

[Ranger5022]

just a quick query guys
i noticed on one of the screen shots that the british para had a bayonet fitted on his rifle will these be usable ina CQB situation. This may have already been answered in another thread in which case I apologise.
The OAP clan of which I am a member are waiting with baited breath for this to be released fantastic work guys keep it up!! :)

[War Pig]

Quick usage of the *search* option gives this for e.g.

http://www.hamandjam.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=217&highlight=bayo

Jed, on the other hand, is such an enigmatic person, that I'm not quite sure what to make of his statement 'bout the bayonets.

:wink:

[Ranger5022]

Thanx mate

[Jed]

The only reason the rifle has a bayo on it is because its the DoD 1.3 model we borrowed as a stop-gap until ours is done.

Yes, we have melee code for some weapons in HaJ but we're not decided yet which will be bayo or buttsmack.

[Vandal]

What if the player could choose, either by having a button set to (on/off bayo) with effects on firing and damage or a choice when picking weapons at the menu with no effect.

Here's what I mean.

Scenario 1: You choose a rifle (or class, w/e.) and there is a button that says Bayonette and one that says Buttsmack. This way each player gets to choose their melee, and everybody is happy. Same damage code ala DOD, same reach etc.

Scenario 2: You have a button set up to take on/take off the Bayo. With the bayo on, like in real life, the rifle is heavier at the end and thus a little less accurate, however melee attacks with Bayo do major damage. With bayo off, you fire straighter, but melee attacks do less damage. This allows the player to have a choice that effects their gameplay and is somewhat realistic to the time.

[Trp Dutch]

Schtab Schtab is what you prefer isnt it Jed? :P

[Jed]

Only with a knife.... ;)

Rifle butts make skulls croonchie :D

[jackx]

I'd just have a generic "melee" attack, perhaps based on distance to the target - so it's stabbity-stab-stab-stab for targets far enough away, and some sort of buttsmack or other "brawl" attack for close targets in melee... should feel more authentic and if the different attacks had different speeds and dmg values, it also would add depth to melee combat... but tbh I don't think the latter is needed, it's a WW2 mod, and hand-to-hand-fighting should be rather rare.

[ceacar99]

one problem i have with the but smack is games make it hurt WAY too much. hell dod classic had a but hitting head icon for it to supposedly explain why it one shots. however people hardly EVER hit the head with the but, what the hell is up with that? in other words you shouldnt be able to take someone out with a but in one or two hits UNLESS its a actuall registered headshot. none of this sneaking up behind some guy and kiling them by bashing thier foot buisness please....

also jack, i think your getting somewhere with that idea i just dont think its quite right. bayonets are just plain supperior to the but(not counting damage) in highly tight quarters or loose. its just easier to manage and operate, a but smack requires more room than you'd think(mainly on the sides of the person though). its just best to level your bayonet and stab, or if for some reason you cannot do that slash.

there could be a seperate button so players could stab or slash but i honestly dont see any reason for such depth.

[Pierog]

hitting someone in the head with the butt of the weapon will probably knock you out taking you out of the game anyway.

[ceacar99]

ya i think ACTUAL headshots with butts should be effective. though the person is wearing a helmet, maybe you guys could make a distinction betwean a helmet hit and a exposed head hit. the guy is wearing a helmet for a reason and if your butt strikes that it wont be very effective....

[jaboo224]

lol.... we will think of something dont worry....

[jackx]

I don't know about you, ceacar, but I'd find it hard to stab or slash at someone with a 1m+ long weapon when I'm practically touching said person... in that case I'd try to shove/push/do something else to either gain space for an attack or otherwise hurt them... it just feels stupid to see a "stab" animation when you're right on top of the other guy...

[Ginger Lord]

We could always do a test, I'll get an Enfield out of the armoury, then we shall see whether stabbing him with a (sword) bayonet, or cracking him on the head is more effective

:P

[jackx]

It's not about what's more effective overall, but in a given situation - if your enemy is standing right in front of you, he's either closer to you than your bayonet or you're holding the weapon across your body in some way, neither of which is a good position from which to try and stab him...

Maybe it's because I play(ed) a lot of bg, where the issue is even more pronounced, since you're shoving 7-feet-poles around, and thus touching someone or something and then being able to stab it just feels weird.

[ceacar99]

I don't know about you, ceacar, but I'd find it hard to stab or slash at someone with a 1m+ long weapon when I'm practically touching said person... in that case I'd try to shove/push/do something else to either gain space for an attack or otherwise hurt them... it just feels stupid to see a "stab" animation when you're right on top of the other guy...

in a couple of minutes ill post some pictures of the PROPER way to fight in hand to hand in very tight quarters with what ammounts to a halberd(a spear that has the ability to slash). a rifle with its bayonet is basically a good short halberd in hand to hand so its pretty much identical.

allright i got all the pictures, prepare for your crash course in spears and halberds....

this first picture is of the halberd(replace with rifle for this situation) set. this is how you set yourself to meet an oncoming enemy. though you'd switch to a front stance(im in a back stance in this picture) to face a charging wave of enemies in formation. the back stance provides more flexibility and thus is better for one on one....

http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/8909/18cd.th.jpg (http://img320.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18cd.jpg)

this next picture is the weapon pulled and ready for a thrust. notice how my right arm is fully extended in the back. this allows me to pull the weapon so far back that only the blade of the weapon (about a foot and a half) is passing beyond my shoulder. in other words i can EASALY stab anything that is more than one and a half feet away from me. if i were to use a rifle like the lee enfield in ww2 i'd be even more effective in close combat because the weapons blade is shorter, allowing me to stab things at less range than one and a half feet.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9117/21pp.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=21pp.jpg)

this is a picture of the proper thrust, i switch from backstance to front to add power from my hips and provide stability...

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/286/38ho.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=38ho.jpg)

if an enemy for some reason manages to get too close you bash him back. sometimes you do this just to gain an upper hand and not because you cannot thrust. generally you thrust the pole into the oponent's neck or chest, it stuns him like hell and gets you some breathing room.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2425/44xk.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=44xk.jpg)

finally you might want to chop or slash at the enemy, this is the proper possition for the chop. however especially with a bayonet you wont use this much. its just not worth it, a chop or a slash has NO WERE near the power of a thrust and its easy to defend against. attacks like these are to sweep at the enemy and keep them from getting around you. thats about all the good they realy can do against a skilled oponent.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/2366/53sr.th.jpg (http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=53sr.jpg)

[War Pig]

rofl..this is hilarious.

Couple of questions

a) has any of you received hand to hand military combat training?

b) has any of you actually been in a hand to hand combat situation?

Just wondering.. :wink:

[ceacar99]

im a 2nd degree blackbelt in tae kwon do. i am a first degree in kempo. i am also a first in judo, consider that it generally takes about 5 years to acheave a first degree in any martial art...(i took kempo and judo at the same time though). on top of that is my years of experience in re-inactments and smithing my own weapons. i dont lie, i can use all these weapons better in hand to hand than fireing them. but i have fired plenty of rifles in my time(not to mention i hang out with alot of vets, lol).

anyway guys look up i posted the stuff on halberds(wich applies to rifles too).

[War Pig]

uuh I'm impressed. :wink: Note the word military in my question. :lol:

Anyhoot. Carry on. I do realize the ligitimate question about bayos/butt smack, and how they don't quite work in most of the games out there.. :D

[ceacar99]

ya sorry, i admit no actual military experience, i havent exactly signed up yet :P. partially its because im afriad that my bad eyesight will keep me from doin anything "fun". im hoping to have enough money for surgery soon though.

[jackx]

My definition of close, as my posts should have made clear, is "direct physical contact, or within a few inches of direct physical contact".

if an enemy for some reason manages to get too close you bash him back. sometimes you do this just to gain an upper hand and not because you cannot thrust. generally you thrust the pole into the oponent's neck or chest, it stuns him like hell and gets you some breathing room.


See, this is what I was talking about the entire time...


That said, the extent to which WW2 soldiers were trained to fight in such a way is of course debatable...

(and no, I have no military or martial arts experience to speak of - re-enactment bayo "drill" does not count here IMHO, but then I never attempted to venture out of the area of common sense and physical (im)possibility)

[ceacar99]

however, unlike a butt smack is more of a "pole shove" or something like that. you shove like this(though you'd probally be in a stance to gain more advantage).


http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2425/44xk.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=44xk.jpg)

the shove doesnt realy do any damage, youve got to understand that. it just is for the pure purpose of beating someone back. however, its VERY rare that anyone can get you in a situation where you cannot thrust. this is mainly that for some reason you cannot turn your weapon. in other words if you have enough room to turn your weapon for a but smack you have enough for a stab with the bayonet.

soldiers used to fight like that all the time. the bayonet is for kills, the middle of the rifle is for parries and pushes and the but is for stuns. you grip with one hand just before the end of the barrel and the other just under the trigger. then you use the techniques i showed above.

you might do one strategy with butts that is sucessfull. you bash them low with the butt and then come down hard from above with the blade. generally you can strike quickly enough(imagine someone using both ends of a staff) that most people wouldnt be quick enough to defend against it, especially if you actually get them with the butt in the first strike. however, once again slashes arent nearly as effective as stabs, especially with bayonets but you could do serious damage. if the blade holds out it acts as a naginata, a japanese shock trooper's weapon.

all this is getting overly complicated though. the dev team just needs bayonet thrusts and they are set. if they want they can do a complex hand ot hand system but i seriously dont think they'd be interested. just a good solid thrust... hope they use my pictures as references of how the animations should look though :D. if you guys want some better ones i can do that, these arent the best i know...

[jackx]

Yeah, "buttsmack" is a poor choice of a name for that alternative melee attack, I suppose I should've called it something different right away... ;)

As to the "damage" it does, since this is a game, damage is handled abstractly, and unless it comes with an extremely sophisticated simulation of cqb (which then would be almost uncontrollabe due to lack of a suitable input device), a certain amount of "damage" should accompany such an attack to show that it has brought you a step closer to taking out your enemy.
Damage for a head/throat hit should be high, if only to reward aim, and low for other areas to add the additional element of staying at the right distance to the target to melee combat...

[Jed]

Such debate over something so simple :D

Actually, to be fair it's good info but when it comes to the bayo/buttsmack animations I'm going the historically accurate route of actually animating them to match the techniques taught in the actual British Small-Arms training manual.

If you want to check yourself, you can see the manual here (http://www.wunderboy.org/public/01-12-42.pdf)

[War Pig]

:lol: RTFM :lol:

[ceacar99]

actually its not realy different than how i learned how to use such a weapon....

the "on guard" possition in the manual is almost identical to my "on guard possition". the difference is that my front leg would be farther foreward and my rear foot would be angled at a 45. that and my weapon is at a higher angle than the figure in the manual...


http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/8909/18cd.th.jpg (http://img320.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18cd.jpg)

all martial arts translate. the brits, the germans the americans... they all used the same martial art techniques that i learned. this is because there is just a correct way to do things. now they may not do karate chops but the punches, the kicks and the fighting with a spear or halberd(in the modern sense a bayonet) is pretty much identical. the real difference is the style in wich the user has learned to fight. the british manual says under general point 2 that soldiers should be encouraged to develop thier own style to suit thier body build and just thier mentality just so long as they learn the principles(the stances and so on). however i do admit that an instructor can at the very least lean a soldier twards a certian style of fighting.

hell figure 2 shows exactly how i'd do an avancing low thrust, rear arm fully extended, front bent.... its kinda cool realy...

[Trp Dutch]

That manual should be the source indeed... I do think though the drawings are e bit clumsy and the soldier looks like he's leaning forward a bit to much.

But then again, Brits are known for their sense of balance (just look at how agile Tony the Acrobat is!)

[ceacar99]

actually he is not leaning foreward too much. the drawings are clumsy but what he is doing in figure one is almost a front stance. the only difference is that he has his shoulders leaned foreward instead of centered and his rear foot isnt at a 45 degree angle(the 45 degree angle is the magic angle in martial arts) and ya his front leg should probally be further forewards.... well anyway its a good possition if you mean to hold your turf, no other stance you can take is as solid. however if you need to move quickly that stance may get you killed....

when the sun comes up tomarrow i might show you the foot placement in a proper front stance....

[Rome]

hey, let's have an in game move where you can thumb an opponents eye out with your bare hands :|

I don't know, sounds pretty realistic to me. :lol:

[Das-W00t]

Pictures

I had no idea you were that old.

[Rome]

hey is the sten going to have a bayonet? - "pigsticker" (I don't know if someone mentioned it before)

maybe for para-class, or special night raid maps only.

[ceacar99]

Pictures

I had no idea you were that old.

what made you think i was realy young? my poor spelling? :P. (then again i am pretty young.... just not a teenager)