Recoil

[rifleman]

How will you implement recoil? DoD or CS style (or perhaps something unique)? I really like CS's system because of how fun and rewarding it is to use accurate single shots or short bursts with the ARs at long range, but I also like DoD's recoil because it makes the guns feel really powerful.

And I really, really hope you stay away from ironsights. I can't stand the ironsights in DoD:S because most maps are too small to use them, and because I don't want the rifles to be a poor man's sniper rifle. I much prefer action-rifling, DoD-style, instead of hanging back and sniping people with a huge piece of metal blocking a third of your screen.

[ceacar99]

its a comman misconception that automatic fire isnt controllable. the reality is that you can controll automatic fire. its about keeping the weapon steady and down.

personally i like the dod stuff. it simulates the real thing better than "oh you fired a shot so your inacurate now". in dod its about learning to deal with the recoil of the bar, once you do that thing becomes a monster. its not perfectly realistic but its better than just making someone inacurate for the hell of it.

[Defpotec]

personally i like the dod stuff. it simulates the real thing better than "oh you fired a shot so your inacurate now". in dod its about learning to deal with the recoil of the bar, once you do that thing becomes a monster. its not perfectly realistic but its better than just making someone inacurate for the hell of it.

I have to agree with this, though a recoil system unique to H&J would also suite me just fine.

[jackx]

DoD style isn't bad, however I'd suggest two amendments (I know this is General Discussion and not Ideas/Feedback, but I don't feel like opening a separate thread for this):

- trace the shots from the muzzle instead of just randomly placing them within the cone. That way, you cannot miss something you are touching.

- have mouse movement influence recoil - i.e. moving the mouse laterally adds (more of) a sideways motion to it, making fully automatic fire a bit harder to control if you're trying to engage multiple targets quickly (or just go for a very fast-moving target)...


Also, recoil should not pray a prominent part in weapon balancing, because it'll most likely not be much of a hindrance, if any at all, to most players, so we don't end up with smth like DoD where once you can control the recoil, you have no reason to pick up a SMG instead of a LMG...

[Jed]

You guys should read the FAQ - recoil is all explained there.

[jackx]

we project a "cone" from the tip of the weapons muzzle
I assume I can read that as "all shots are traced from the muzzle of the weapon", then... can I?
Don't assume I haven't read the FAQ when all I do is ask a pedantic question about a minor detail that the FAQ doesn't answer 100%.

[Jed]

*oooh handbag* :D

Well of course we project the bullet from the muzzle, thats where bullets generally come out of the gun.

The recoil has two factors - the actual recoil where we move your aim after the shot and the small cone we fire the shot into. The cone is there to give a small element of randomness so that the weapons dont become laser guided but its not as severe as DoD:S and the cone is weighted so that on average, shots gravitate more towards the centre than randomly about it. The cone is reduced slightly depending on your stance, i.e. crouched and prone have smaller cones than the standing one and in theory your aim would be more stable in those positions.

Physical recoil works in a similar way.

All in all, we're found it more predictable than DoD:S in playtesting - you know that your shots wont be spot on, especially over huge distances but you do know that their pretty much going to land where you aim them.

[jackx]

*ducks* ;)

I think it was the word "project" that put me off... small cone + recoil ("muzzle climb/rise" to be more precise) is the way to go IMHO - it's controllable enough to allow for a good skill curve and long-time enjoyment without being too controllable, so players can't completely dominate . :)

As for crouch and prone - I assume I can't fire while moving prone, but what about moving crouched? How will the accuracy be compared to moving while standing up?

Also, there's still the question as to why I should pick, say, a Sten when I can also go with a Bren, assuming I can effectively control the recoil on both weapons...

[Ginger Lord]

Whilst the Bren does more damage and power (also damaging more at further distances) it isn't a hugely effective weapon in CQB. The recoil and (relativly) slow rate of fire means its hard to track close objects.

The Sten has a much better ROF and easier to control in short bursts. However if you start trying to snipe people over 30-50m away then your bullets are going to be not doing as much damage and it make take 6-7 hits to kill someone.

[jackx]

ROF might do the trick, so that the SMG has an advantage if both players are moving (i.e. have crap accuracy...) still, unless the recoil on the Bren isn't extremely high, power and accuracy should do the trick at anything beyond point-blank range... as you can see, I'm not entirely convinced yet that it'll work out... perhaps if the Sten is also less inaccurate on the move than the Bren, so that to use the Bren effectively, you have to remain stationary... but I guess with as much dev power and experience as this team has as well as solid playtesting, you guys will get it just right in the end :)

[ceacar99]

the real thing that will work is not so much acuracy but damage fallout over distance. if the smg does crap damage over a "long" distance like ginger lord said it doesnt matter if the thing is still fairly acurate at that distance. the rifles and the support will win 90% of the time.

[Jed]

Yeah it has to be said that I have on occasion in play testing emptied half a mag from a Sten at someone about 200yds away and it's about as useful as throwing gravel.

It does take a little while to get used to not being able snipe with an SMG like you could in DoD:S but even still its funny to get a 1 hp "bee sting" from a 9mm round fired from half the map away.

[Defpotec]

This whole range thing has me kinda apprehensive, I don't really like the idea of bullets registering as "bee stings" at any distance..

[Ginger Lord]

It gives the weapons a defined role, rather than nefing accuracy to make the roll fit.

Our SMG's have pretty tight cones and damage that fades over distance (I forget the distance we have in the moment but I think its 1000 map units for SMG's) rather than DoD:S method of a huge random cone and full damage, that often results in headshots at absurd distances like 500yrds.

[ceacar99]

This whole range thing has me kinda apprehensive, I don't really like the idea of bullets registering as "bee stings" at any distance..

its fact that bullets have severe damage drop off at distances. like i had a discussion with someone earlier about how marksmen have been able to hit 500m targets consistantly with a c96. it doesnt mean it would do anything at that range. the c96's effective range is 150m. at 500m the bullets lack any power whatsoever. at that range its likely that the soldier's jacket would easaly stop the round.

sub machineguns are automatic weapons that use pistol rounds. that means they dont hit hard at long distances. a good range for one of those rounds is 50m. past 100m thier power starts to drop off. most smgs just arent usefull past 200m even if you can hit the target now and again. it doesnt hit the target hard enough. sure you can kill at that range but its like hitting the target with a .22 short....

since ham and jam likely wont involve 500m distances or even 300m distances(they might... who knows... but i doubt it) they have to make the round's effectiveness drop more quickly. its just for gameplay yknow?

[Ginger Lord]

For those that have been paintballing, almost certainly you will have been hit by a random paintball at distance and it just bounce off or get caught in your clothes. I've taken some pretty direct hits and even ricochets from paintball, had the mild pain and looked down, expecting paint splat just to see the ball caught in a fold in my overalls.

Same thing with bullets albeit at much greater distances than 30m

[jackx]

The key word being "much".
200m is a distance at which I still wouldn't want to be hit by a 9x19mm round, so I hope the "1 damage" was either just a joke, or happens at distances much greater than that.
6-7 hits to kill at that distance (with a mix of limb and body hits) sounds about right, should let you kill someone if you get the drop on them, but not outfight a rifle or LMG head-on.

[DarkAvenger]

I think it was a mix of satire and truth... being as he said "half the map away" which, I'd think would be something nearing 3-400m or more (I have no clue what the approximate of a map unit is to meters/feet, nor how large the maps are...)

[ceacar99]

jackx, 200m is a LONG way for a smg or a pistol. 200m is DOUBLE the effective range of the mp40. im not sure about 1 damage but it should take alot of rounds out of a mp40 or any other smg to take someone out at that distance.

effective range is derived from what is possible to acurately hit with the weapon and the power of the round at that range. since the mp40's effective range is 100m that means that when you get beyond that its pretty damn hard to hit someone hard enough to take them out of the fight. theyll likely get bandaged and shoot you back.

[Ginger Lord]

For those that are worried, have a look at this image:

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/7278/range7xu.th.jpg (http://img480.imageshack.us/my.php?image=range7xu.jpg)

This is a bog standard range testing map, each orange block is the height of a man. The stens effective range was 50yrds, the MP40 was 100yrds.

Our damage at the moment starts to tail off from 50yrds onwards with 100yrds doing about 60%dmg and then tailing off beyond that. Being hit at 300yrds probably will result in a "bee-sting" 1dmg hit which tbh isnt a problem, because you probably wont be able to see/hit the bastard at that range.

[jackx]

ceacar: What in my post suggests I'm not aware of that? To get 6-7 hits at ~200m, you'll probably end up emptying an entire magazine, so that's hardly effective...

I still think damage shouldn't drop to something as ridiculous as "1", as it clearly shows the absurdity of a "hitpoint" system... although you're of course quite correct that it'll hardly matter at all in actual gameplay...

[War Pig]

I've shot a man with a shotgun.

edit: err..that didn't come out right. It was a marking shot, and other hunters happened to be in the general direction about 100 meters away. They heard the ammo 'raining' down. :wink:

[Faceman]

For those that are worried, have a look at this image:

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/7278/range7xu.th.jpg (http://img480.imageshack.us/my.php?image=range7xu.jpg)


I like how you diagram.