mexican immigration

[ceacar99]

allright, this has been frustrating me. i am very uptight and honestly i need to talk about this. i am willing to have a good DEBATE AND CONVERSATION with you guys. not an arguement. i can understand that all of us can get very upset but when you feel the urge to type something like "you fucking retard!" step outside, take a walk and try again. i dont want this to turn into a shouting or name calling match...

this is mainly for the americans who are here(im honestly not sure, it seems a largely euro crowd) but EVERYONE is welcome to put thier two bits in. if it doesnt matter to you please dont comment. once again, be as pollite and courtious to each other as possible, it is my experience that pollitcal debates get people heated so if you go into the debate with a mentality that you will try to remain cool it will do everyone a big favor.

anyway, as we all know there are about 11 million undocumented workers in the united states. they just went on strike today and i made the STUPID mistake of turning on fox news to see what happened. i hate fox news, their views are just the opisate of what myne are.

about 55,000 random(well not completely random) people in the ENTIRE world that wants to come here(im not saying everyone wants to come to the states im saying of the world that wants to come here) can come and become citizens in the united states. people coming from nations like mexico often find that they will never get accepted no matter how long they wait because thier nation tries to send so many immigrants and thus is on a "black list". only exeptionaly skilled workers from those nations have a shot at getting in.

why is this a big deal? what is the problem? the reality is that our nation was founded on immigrants. immigrants are our oxigen that makes the furnaces that is our economy burn brighter and hotter. they flux in and we go into a boom. there is a historic basis around that.

our first quote flood of immigrants was the irish, starting in the 1830's but realy picking up in speed durring the 1840's. now back then pretty much everyone was an undocumented worker. borders were open and it was pretty hard for the government to keep track of everyone. in essense the irish BUILT the north east's industry. they dug first the canals, then built the railroads and worked the factories that were required to make the northeast the ecenomic powerhouse it was in the 1860's for the civil war. the north had many times more industry than the south and it showed in the war. the irish were invaluable in thier contrabution both militaristicly(drafts) and industrialy. a southern genneral at the end of the war said "you only won because you had more irish".

but what about the other waves? take a look at what i have nicknamed the golden coast, californya. what made californya bloom? was it the gold? maybe the fertile vallies? oh wait its gotta be the strategic ports right! in reality none of those things would have ammounted to squat without the contrabution of the chinese. the chinese didnt come over here because of famine or strife but because even working on the railroads they could make in 2 or 3 weeks what they used to make in a year. the chinese contrabution to the economy of the far west realy made it what it is today. they brought a incredible work ethic with them.

mark twain had ALOT to say about the chinese immigrants to the united states. its genneralised and well, racist but when you read this you do realise that he has nothing but respect for the chinese

http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/timeline/riseind/chinimms/twain.html

despite some people seeing the industrious nature of almost all immigrants the "golden coast" passed laws for a long time that were supposed to prevent any immigration from china. people back then just as now could not for some reason see what good things immigrants were doing for our nation.

the mexican wave of immigration began in the 1940's. our government needed soldiers to fight and despite trying to carefully manage drafts so there would still be farmworkers our nation was faced with a great need for people to work and mostly harvest our crops while our soldiers were away. this started a great workers program wich invited millions of mexican workers into our nation to harvest our crops. obviously they accepted. on both sides the work program was a big hit. it helped our agriculture(and thus in turn our industry) and the mexican workers experienced a nation wich payed well(compared to what they were used to) and wasnt full of corrupt officials. sadly in the 1960's the program was ended but the wave of immigration did not stop.

in reality those workers loved to work here. thats why they keep coming back, thats why thier children and their grand children are coming. america is a great place to be. with our ecenomic strength we are truely the land of opertunity. however, today we have systems in place, we are very anti immigration. uneducated bigot americans complain that mexican immigrants take thier jobs and people are somehow offended by people speaking spanish around them.

in the end if we staunch this flow of fresh inpressionable uneducated workers we will doom ourselves. we will further doom ourselves if we alianate them. france is having many problems today with immigrants rioting but i believe one of the reasons for the riots is that the french have honestly alienated them and not considered them truely french. no offence to you french people out there but why do so many americans want to turn our nation into france? do you want riots? do you want the economy to slow down? or do you want peace and continued prosperity?

in the end undocumented workers dont hurt us. its actually our tradition to have HUGE ammounts of undocumented workers. however in this day in age, we know better. we can document them. simply remove the immigration limits. why only 55 thousand people a year? why not let in as many people who will want to come in? we have done that in the past and the results lead to a stronger america. sure there was some strife at first but when you try to fuse two piece of iron in the forge there is some conflict betwean the two before they begin to fuse.

[DarkAvenger]

Spelling aside, your argument (in my eyes) is flawed in atleast one point, in the end undocumented workers dont hurt us.

I will disprove this from an economic standpoint. Simply put, they take money, bring it to their country, and leave. Out of it, we get cheap labor, but no taxes on their wages, because they are being paid well under minimum wage (US min. wage) and under the table. If the federal government does not recieve taxes on the money being pulled out of the country, then the dollar looses its strength, because the government has to put in more "money" to cover for the loss via illegal immagrants. I say "money" in the sense of Keynesian Economics: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics ) where money means, imaginary digets placed into an account or budget to artificially inflate the economy to soften the blows of the economic cycle. A key feature in the Keynesian economy is the increase in tax returns by the "debtors" of the government (workers, corperations, loan applicants) to compensate for the enigmatic "money".

When Mexican workers come to the US, for the most part (but not always) illegaly, via tunnels or just running across the border in the desert, and the work for, say $ 4 a day, and they dont pay income tax or property tax on the squabble of an apartment that the share with 3 families and 20 other men, then the amount of "money" that the federal government has to force into the economy creates a bubble of inflation that is deadly hazardous to the well-being of the total economy.

My only qualm with the immigration policy, is the soft handed posture when dealing with the flood of (dare I say it again...) ILLEGAL workers, when catching and releasing them. Make a point to the Mexican government, "you let them come, they might not get back with all the peices intact...". Immagrents that come through the proper system, of papers and checks and etc. are fine, we know who they are, where they are, and what they are doing.

As a security problem for this country, it is a large problem, If (I really want to kick myself for this argument but its true...) terrorists wanted to, they could easily find one man on the Mexican side to guide them through a blind spot in the very limited survaillence system we have, and they would be in our country wreaking havoc before we knew where they came from. This also leads to the drug trafficking problem.... which I will cut off there, because I believe I made my point.

To summarize, ILLEGAL (including your "undocumented") immigrants bad for the economy, the ones that come through the LEGAL channels, and register, and pay taxes, like every other citizen of the country, is good to go, fine and dandy in my book, even if they are only seasonal workers, as long as they are here and pay for what they get and use, including healthcare (which unlike europe and most of the rest of the economic upperclass world [sadly a near racist tone... just about everything but most arab and african, including some asian countries] is NOT free). The massive amount of Illegal movements creates a massive problem in the safety of the country.

Its near 12:00 for me right now, so I might edit this post or add on with more arguments tomorrow.

[ceacar99]

well the isuse is that only 55,000 people in the ENTIRE world can come to this country. mexico is on sort of a black list and so its extreemly hard for mexicans to compete with the rest of the world that wants to come here.

the reason why they come, work and then go home is because we make NO EFFORT to keep them here and make them american citizens. look at the protests right now, i know there are a few mexican flags in the mix but i was watching this stuff all day. the people are chanting "usa! usa!" with american flags. is that not a clue of thier wishes? why would they want to bring thier wife along illegally when the fact is that 90% of the female illegals get raped somewhere along the way? why would they want to come here, set up a home, pay taxes and buy a car when any moment the ins can bust in take everything they worked hard for away and send them home?

the issue is not that we have so many immigrants. the issue is that the powers that be in this nation are basically being supremisists and denying these people the right to citizenship. why do we only accept 55,000 people a year? durring the 1840's we averaged FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE A YEAR from ireland alone. if they could apply to legally work in this nation and even become a citizen do you not think they would?

i live in colorado, this is immigrant centeral. for years we have been a "haven" state. when i went to high school over 50% of the student body spoke spanish fluently. i know from living with these people, many of whom have illegal parrents or are illegal themselves that they wish to BECOME AMERICAN CITIZENS. however, we show no intention of wanting that. we alienate them just like the french alienate the arabs.

also i know from personal experience that the vast flood of immigrants weather undocumented or documented DOES NOT hurt the economy. colorado is one of the most rapidly growing states in terms of ecenomics, its rated one of the best places to live in the ENTIRE nation and everything seems to be going up. coincidently we have been a "haven state" for undocumented immigrants. some friends of myne used to tell a funny joke.

"what do you call a texan?"
"what?"
"a mexican who was too lazy to come to colorado!"

in reality here in colorado they do our yards, they build our buildings and they manage our garbage. they fufill thier roles in our society so eventually they too can earn an education and move up in life providing more jobs for others to fill in. however this will never happen on a large scale untill we accept these people. it will never happen untill we say "hey friend, come be an american too!". this stingy attitude of "we are americans, superior to everyone and you cant be one" will just kill us in the end. the issue is not the immigrants, its our own retarded attitude twards them. why the hell dont we just simply allow them to take the tests and become a legal american citizen, bring over thier family and join us in our prosperity?

go out, look for yourself. 99.9% of all the illegal immigrants are illegal because we simply refuse to allow them to even take the citizenship test. its not that they failed the test, its simply because they werent one of the lucky mere 55,000 people a year who get selected to take the test. the problem is OUR OWN FAULT. you want them to pay taxes? well sure, treat them like human beings with the same rights as our own and allow them to at least take the damned test. if they fail, send them home to study and let them take the test again. the instant you provide them incentive to stay here with thier earned money they will.

added:

i thought it would be best if i showed a couple modern examples of what happens to the american economy when we cut off immigrants, undocumented or documented.

the florida orange compnay is in an intense battle with many south american companies. right now it looks like they are going to eventually loose. even with our high trade terrifs south american companies can ship in oranges and orange juice at a lower cost than we can just simply to grow/make the stuff here. why is that? with almost every food america has it the cheepest. no where else in the world with 90% of the foods out there can you get a better price. so why is this company loosing to a south american company over oranges?

the answer is immigrants. florida has realy cracked down on immigrants. as a result the orange orchards are short of hands. not just cheep hands but just hands to pick the oranges. oranges are one of the foods that we enjoy that we have because of the difficulties of harvest failed to automate. its like iceberg lettuice, it requires actual farmhands to harvest it realy. there are some machines that can do it but no where near the efficiancy of a human being. not to mention 80% of our orchards would have to be rebuilt if we were to automate because the paths betwean the trees arent even or wide enough. in the end it comes down to one point, one of our american companies is dieing because we simply refuse to allow a fresh uneducated workforce in to work for them. its our fault they are collapsing and no other reason.

another example is tomatos. after the work program was cancled in the 60's the tomato price skyrocketed. this is because they relied on the farmhands to harvest the delicate food. in order to cope a new thick skinned tomato was created so that machines can harvest it. however despite that the thick skinned tomatos only show up in industrial systems. namely factories that can/manufacture foods. the delicious tomatoes that you eat from your grocery store are most asuradely hand picked by an immigrant. they are now affordable because the immigrants started coming back. they leave, no more fresh cheep and delicious tomatoes. you can have some of the industrial ones i guess but they arent sold at grocery stores for a reason.

[Defpotec]

The following post is semi-relevant:
You know what would solve this problem? A world without borders. Say goodbye to border disputes and immigration probloms, now you can't be an illegal immigrant anywhere because there is just one territiory: Earth. And while we're at it, eliminate religion as well. Tada! No more Holy Wars, suicide bombings, or jihad on my white ass.

[Jed]

This is not the kind of discussion we want or allow on the HaJ forums.