classes, equipment.

[ceacar99]

how will the system work? will there be classes? how will equipment work. if classes what classes will there be? (sorry if this is adressed on the main page but i couldnt find any info on it.)

one suggestion i have is a combo class and choose your own equipment system.

see the player would choose his class, assault say.... the assault infantryman would have his basic equipment. basically his uniform a smg, a field spade and a few extra mags. now the infantryman would have some extra "space" or "weight" to "spend" on aquireing extra equipment. this wouldnt be much. this space would be used to "buy" more extra mags, plenty of grenades, smoke and various other tools of the trade. maybe even tnt det-packs to blast through fortified possitions and act as primitive claymore ambushes.

what a soldier realy needs to suceed is his basic rifle, spade and some grenades. however the extra equipment would help them do thier job acording to how they would like to do it. maybe players could purchase a scope or binocs to use, not on thier weapon but to look through for a better view of far off targets or questionable targets(something they think just may be an enemy). there is a fair list of things that could be included that players could "purchase" with thier extra space.

the final aspect is that players can save thier favorites for each class. this allows players to choose thier equipment and get to the field right away. anyway thats just my idea for how things could work. other people might come up with inprovements or just plain better ones.

[crookedJ0K3R]

I say just a Squad Leader, Rifleman, and in Britain's case, an LMG would do just fine.

Keep it simple, I dont want to go through an introduction of a novel just to set up my player just to get killed by some MG Ramboing Son of a B****.

Simple, yet sturdy.

[Pierog]

itll be simple yet complex

[War Pig]

itll be simple yet complex

Now that was enigmatic and philosophical! :o

Usually the "normal" soldiers were only issued the standard equipment. And that's not much. :) Then again, on special missions they might have given more/special equip, like more nades, pistols etc..

imo, cs type "puchase" system wouldn't quite fit a wwII game.

[Lardassmonkey]

Well I'm a H&D fan so any amount of messing about customising uniforms and weapons gets my vote. I hate just selecting a class and running around having the same stuff as everyone else. Ceacars idea of having semi- custom loadouts sounds like a good compromise though.

[War Pig]

Welp, I think it might be interesting to be able to balance between ammo and nades. I.e, the more ammo you have, the less nades you can carry etc. Though, only to certain extent.. It could turn really messy after a certain point (cf. dod1.3b.)

Some other choices that an 'average' soldier might have been able to make bfr an assault, might be interesting..

But even so, I'm not sure if it would serve the purpose of the game that well?

Opinions?

[Ginger Lord]

It's not in the mod at the moment or has been planned to be implemented. Doesn't mean it won't be, but I wouldnt expect it in the first release or so, its a lot of work to do.

[Jed]

It's possible that, although when you first spawn your class has certain "standard" items, there may be room for you to pic up other things that you find, for example nades dropped by killed players. So, for example, you could spawn with 2 nades but pick up another 2 somewhere down the line, or spawn with 5 magazines but pick up another 3.

[crookedJ0K3R]

Would it be like pushing a button to search a body like in CoD on some of those multiplayer mods.

"You've found an extra pair of socks!"

Well ok, maybe not an extra pair of socks but how about an Extra Mag or Frag or even a Smoke. Maybe a canteen of water to increase health by like 5 points or so?

[Jed]

Would it be like pushing a button to search a body like in CoD on some of those multiplayer mods.

No most likely, you see it on the ground, put it in your crosshairs and press "use" to pick it up.

[ceacar99]

Usually the "normal" soldiers were only issued the standard equipment. And that's not much. Smile Then again, on special missions they might have given more/special equip, like more nades, pistols etc..

actually in terms of nades and mags, if they were avalabe and not in short supply a soldier was allowed to stock up on as many as they could. it wasnt like "and you get ten mags, and you get ten mags...." it was more like "allright the supplies are here, stock up and then we are moving out!"

pistols generally werent something a soldier could get from the army, they normally would be purchased individually. thus it was pretty damn rare to see a soldier who is not an officer with a side arm. i wasnt suggesting sidearms on the list. however other items, like det packs, smoke, wire cutters, binocs, and various other utility pieces of equipment were available. binocs were pretty rare though... essentially if you were qualified you had acess if it was in supply.

hell i just had another idea(inspired by a post above) a canteen! make sprinting length and speed similar to red orchestra only it doesnt recoup fast. the player who uses his sprint up will need to sit down for a while to recoup. if he takes a drink from his canteen he gets a non stackable bonus to his regen of his stamina.

well anyway i think my system would work well. its not like cs or something like that. it starts to come close to acurately portraying the soldiers in the field. each guy had a different personality and thus he carried different things. varying ammo and so on. the one thing i think should be added to my proposed system is that there should be stamina length bonuses(not regen or sprinting speed) to not using some of your free space.

[War Pig]

Welp, I guess it's a difference between army systems. That's not quite how it worked over here, or still does. Standard equip., standard amount of mags, perhaps extra ammo in boxes etc.

Though, I think there was always shortage of supplies (not including the US army though :shock: ).

But "looting" the dead soldiers, that's a rather good idea. Mags, nades, special supply etc., might be quite interesting. :)

[crookedJ0K3R]

I think I like the idea about the "Supplies is here, stock up and we're movin out in 5." would be unique. Spawn with say 3-5 Mags depending on class, and then depending on the status quoe of the map, if you are getting pounded by the opposing team, have a supply drop or something to where you can snag an extra 2-3 mags then head out.

Looting though by far has my vote. Nothin like rumaging through a dead kraut's body to find that Luger for my kid brother.

[spine]

Would it be like pushing a button to search a body like in CoD on some of those multiplayer mods.

"You've found an extra pair of socks!"

I laughed hard! :D

[ceacar99]

I think I like the idea about the "Supplies is here, stock up and we're movin out in 5." would be unique. Spawn with say 3-5 Mags depending on class, and then depending on the status quoe of the map, if you are getting pounded by the opposing team, have a supply drop or something to where you can snag an extra 2-3 mags then head out.

Looting though by far has my vote. Nothin like rumaging through a dead kraut's body to find that Luger for my kid brother.

that makes me think of an exelent expansion of my idea. supply dumps. this takes atrition to a new level. each side has a few stores of supplies, if they are used up or blown up players start with stock equipment or maybe even reduced grenades and ammunition. this would make raids incredibly powerfull, sneak in blow up an enemy stockpile and they are hindered in the field. it may be a bit much though.... might be best to stick with just the original idea.... any comments?

anyway, on a side note why do people like the po8 so much? its a piece of crap. many soldiers got wounded or died because the weapon went off for aparently no reason or simply jammed. its acurate and a machine work of art but completely useless in the field. it fouls too much and thus is completely unreliable. a real pistol is a c96, as reliable as the legendary colt 1911 but it is incredibly acurate. marksman have been able to hit targets consistantly with the weapon at 500m(admited the projectile has slowed down so much by that point that shooting someone with it will have questionable results). the luger is just well.... crap.... well anyway thats enough off topic nonsense...

[DarkAvenger]

a machine work of art

That is the exact reason why everyone wants one, it looks cool and could/can get you alot of money on the market.

[War Pig]

Jebus.. I wanna see a pistol that you can shoot up to 500m with. Even our assault rifles can't really do that well..

Anyhoot. The supply depot idea might be interesting. As perhaps a team captures some crucial node point in a map, their spawn would move further up the map, and perhaps a "supply" depot option would become possible?

Has the dev. team ran out of ammo etc., in big maps? If the pace of the game is "slow" and the maps are big, then stocks of supplies/looting or being able to stack up extra ammo or whatnot would be a nice option. :)

[Ginger Lord]

I think I've run out of ammo twice, in thirteen alpha versions we've tested.

Both times were with the SMG when I ended up in the dark, alone on Pegasus Bridge and things kept moving in the shadows.

[Jed]

Both times were with the SMG when I ended up in the dark, alone on Pegasus Bridge and things kept moving in the shadows.

That was me trying to find my helmet :D

[ceacar99]

Jebus.. I wanna see a pistol that you can shoot up to 500m with. Even our assault rifles can't really do that well..

modern assault rifles arent designed with extreem ranges in mind(though the ak47 is effective at 400m and the m16a2 at 550m). however classic bolt actions could be "effective" at huge ranges. the k98 and lee enfield were effective around 700m. thats a real scary thought there.... one thing to keep in mind in most wars soldiers didnt actually begin fireing untill about 100m. things beyond 200m most soldiers consider marksman's territory.

the c96 is a nearly perfect pistol. some later models use detachable box magazines instead of the old strippers(yes strippers like the way the military reloads k98's and other bolt action rifles) and can fire full auto. however the basics of the weapon are true, acurate enough to hit something at 500m consistantly(though the enemy's jacket alone with no aid of body armor will probally stop the round at that range), its reliable to a fault like the colt 1911a1, its highly controllable and despite popular belief isnt too bukly. just a damn good pistol. i cant believe it didnt become more popular.

I think I've run out of ammo twice, in thirteen alpha versions we've tested.


i think thats comman in most games... escpecially with bolt action rifles. the ammount of rounds one can carry combined with the slow rof realy means that you can fight for a very long time without needing more ammo...

the question is does this throw the semi custom class idea out of the window or does it just mean that if it were to be used changes would just have to be done?

[Das-W00t]

Jebus.. I wanna see a pistol that you can shoot up to 500m with. Even our assault rifles can't really do that well..

modern assault rifles arent designed with extreem ranges in mind(though the ak47 is effective at 400m and the m16a2 at 550m). however classic bolt actions could be "effective" at huge ranges. the k98 and lee enfield were effective around 700m. thats a real scary thought there.... one thing to keep in mind in most wars soldiers didnt actually begin fireing untill about 100m. things beyond 200m most soldiers consider marksman's territory.

the c96 is a nearly perfect pistol. some later models use detachable box magazines instead of the old strippers(yes strippers like the way the military reloads k98's and other bolt action rifles) and can fire full auto. however the basics of the weapon are true, acurate enough to hit something at 500m consistantly(though the enemy's jacket alone with no aid of body armor will probally stop the round at that range), its reliable to a fault like the colt 1911a1, its highly controllable and despite popular belief isnt too bukly. just a damn good pistol. i cant believe it didnt become more popular.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you have no idea what you're talking about. 100m is only 109 yards. It's what I shoot my rifles at. I get 3 inch groupings at that distance. Above 200m is marksmanship territory? The US Army's basic M16 qualification has targets up to 300m.

You've made some glaring mistakes concerning the Broom handle Mauser. You mention the detachable magazine and full auto feature like they were simple design progressions. The fact of the matter is there were only two very late design models that had 20 round detachable magazines, and of those two, one of which had the option for fully automatic fire at 1000 RPM, making it completely impractical except for a last ditch PDW. Most of the C96s seen around the world were 10 round fixed round semi-automatic variants. The 20 round and 6 round fixed mag were also produced, but not nearly as common.

Saying you can hit something consistently at 500m with a C96 is laughable. At 500m the weapon has an average bullet spread of 2 meters. The effective range of the pistol is much closer to 150m to 200m, with shoulder stock attached. This, of course, is pretty much all because of the high velocity of the .30 Mauser Carbine round. Obviously, 9mm Para variants have a much harder time.

The pistol didn't catch on because it IS bulky as all hell, extremely slow to reload (except the rare detachable magazine variants, but that's moot), and heavy. Sure it's reliable, accurate, and has a good punch to it, but that doesn't make it suitable for military use. The Luger DOES fit that mold much better, especially for the WW1 era, if only for the size and magazine reloading.

Besides, we're talking WW2 here; the P38 should be the sidearm of choice.

[Pierog]

let me just say the class system we have is adequate for what we are trying to do and i have never said in game... "I wish they would add this so i can finally be effective"

Rifles rule the long ranges, smgs the short, but there is quite an overlap and you can be effective with every weapon.

[Das-W00t]

lyou can be effective with every weapon.

That's all I needed to hear.

[War Pig]

lyou can be effective with every weapon.

That's all I needed to hear.

Yup, sounds good indeed! :P Surely every class defends its place, and is valuable. :)

[ceacar99]

'm going to go out on a limb here and say you have no idea what you're talking about. 100m is only 109 yards. It's what I shoot my rifles at. I get 3 inch groupings at that distance. Above 200m is marksmanship territory? The US Army's basic M16 qualification has targets up to 300m.

allright you do have me there, i was wrong about that one and im not going to be a baby about it, ill admit that.

You've made some glaring mistakes concerning the Broom handle Mauser. You mention the detachable magazine and full auto feature like they were simple design progressions. The fact of the matter is there were only two very late design models that had 20 round detachable magazines, and of those two, one of which had the option for fully automatic fire at 1000 RPM, making it completely impractical except for a last ditch PDW. Most of the C96s seen around the world were 10 round fixed round semi-automatic variants. The 20 round and 6 round fixed mag were also produced, but not nearly as common.

first off, notice i said SOME later models featured full auto and detatchable box magazines. when did i say it was design progression? second off, the full automatic more adds supression firepower and last ditch house to house fighting ability than anything else. the detatchable box magazine was the real feature that is atractive.

Saying you can hit something consistently at 500m with a C96 is laughable. At 500m the weapon has an average bullet spread of 2 meters. The effective range of the pistol is much closer to 150m to 200m, with shoulder stock attached. This, of course, is pretty much all because of the high velocity of the .30 Mauser Carbine round. Obviously, 9mm Para variants have a much harder time.

i hate to say this but where did you get this information. also a weapons acuracy is NOT the fuckin round it fires. its HOW THE WEAPON IS BUILT. high velocity rounds just mean that it flies farther before hitting the ground and possibly has less effect on it by the wind because the round might spend less time in the air. that second part is questionable though.

also i never once said that the pistol's effective range was at 500m. read up, where did i say that? i did say that marksmen have consistantly hit 500m targets with it. in an arguement language is inportant, pay full attention to what someone says. i use very carefull language to get a fine line point across.

also the c96 isnt that bulky. its bulky by modern standards(most pistols today are around 8 inches and the c96 is around 12) however lets look at arms that were VERY sucessfull in the past.... the LENGENDARY colt single action army and the colt peacemaker were the backbones of american cavalry before the great war(ww1). unlike the rest of the world our cavalry focused on combat with sabres and pistols, close and dirty. against our emediate threats such as native americans it often worked well(though not allways). this ment that the soldier needed both a highly acurate pistol, and one that is easy to handle in the saddle. a big bulky object is NOT easy to handle while controlling one's horse yet the colt 7/12 inch barrel wich in total measured about as long as the c96 was the favorite of us army soldiers. if a 12 inch weapon was so bukly how could the cavalrymen who need smaller equipment like it so much?

the fact is that for horse combat you need combact and specially designed weapons to exell. the colt was considered compact compared to a carbine and it did work for what they normally asked of it. it was easy to use despite the small ammount of room the soldier had and acurate for the time. fighting on horseback is so tight that the sabre was invented for the soul reason of fighting on horse. technically the katana was the first curved sword for fighting on horseback and it was designed to be curved because a straight sword is VERY hard to use on horseback and pretty much all the early samurai were cavalrymen. the problem with a full sized one or a straight one is that you often lop off the horses head. so if 12 inch weapons are so bulky why were they the favorite of troopers that were space consious? hell the c96 today doesnt weigh much more than the 7 1/2 inch barrel colt of back then.

well anyway i can provide lots of links and webpages and yada yada yada... but i think its best just to direct you to someone named terminus at the trenches forums(www.thetrenches.net). i dont think any man knows as much about firearms as he does and if your realy curious about all this c96 stuff he can clear up things for you.


mod note: if this short little debate continues any more could you guys please copy over these posts to a new thread and delete the old ones. i dont wish to hijack a thread.... thank you.[/quote]

[Jed]

mod note: if this short little debate continues any more could you guys please copy over these posts to a new thread and delete the old ones. i dont wish to hijack a thread.... thank you.

Well actually this thread is more like a personal debate and has no real place or is of any value. Ideas and feedback is for just that - this is you two arguing over weapons that aren't even in the game.

Take it up privately via PMs or some other method.

[Trp Dutch]

What?? I cant show MY gun??

http://www.uncrate.com/men/images/super-soaker-shock.jpg

:P

[jaboo224]

duth we are saving that gun for patch 7 of ham and jam which will feature superman and aquaman. and mabye batman if we work hard.

[Pierog]

duth we are saving that gun for patch 7 of ham and jam which will feature superman and aquaman. and mabye batman if we work hard.

jesus christ, now i have to program superman physics.

[El Capitan]

I thought we were going to make superman skybox?

[Pierog]

I thought we were going to make superman skybox?

Hey, stop revealing features.

[Rome]

I say...

rifleman - enfield
assault - sten
support - bren
machine gun - vickers
sniper - enfield (scoped)
rocket - PIAT

[jaboo224]

the vickers would be rather big to carry around over long distances deploy then undeploy then redeploy etc.... in my oppinion

[ceacar99]

i remember seeing videos of people shooting vickers acurately whgile hip shooting O.o(though acurately is a relitive term)..... though they must be EXTREEMLY strong and skilled. i personally think that there should only be a mg class(no support) for the brits with the bren but thats just me.

[Rome]

the vickers would be rather big to carry around over long distances deploy then undeploy then redeploy etc.... in my oppinion

but it's their only heavy machine gun.

[Rome]

i remember seeing videos of people shooting vickers acurately whgile hip shooting O.o(though acurately is a relitive term)..... though they must be EXTREEMLY strong and skilled. i personally think that there should only be a mg class(no support) for the brits with the bren but thats just me.

well if it's able to be mounted with a stand (like in the original DoD) then it could be some kind of hybrid class (I would call it support, but I'm saying it could make up for the disadvantage of the british not having a heavy MG to mount).

I know it's classified as a light machine gun. right?

[ceacar99]

the reality is that the mg34 and the 42 had the british in a tough spot in support. they were gpmgs, meaning they could function in just about every machinegun role. i hate how dod presents that its pretty much inpossible to hit something with either machinegun when they arent set up, that simply is not true. its just for the BEST acuracy you set them up. its much like the modern m249 saw. useable on the move but best to set up. hell those drums that the 34 uses in dod classic? those are assault drums, designed to make the weapon easier to operate on the move, no heavy belt in the way.

the bren had its advantage in the light weight of the weapon compared to the 34 and the 42. it could be fired on the move easier, and caried easier. it in reality was a pretty darn effective lmg. one thing that was discovered about lmg's and saws is that they were often more effective at defence and offence than the heavy machineguns or the medium ones. this is because of thier mobility primarily, and the way they were used. hell that is why today the us army doesnt arm infantry with heavy or medium machineguns, we only have saws now realy.

i dont think the british need the vickers. make some penalties based apon the weight of the weapon for the german machineguns and the bren will compete. lmg's when used PROPERLY are extreemly effective weapons.

[War Pig]

First of all, Vickers and some other water cooled mgs weigh like a sin.

Second, the recoil is SO heavy, that you simply do not use them w/o mounting them.

Usually, those water cooled mgs had a squad using them. At least three men. One feeding, one shooting and one for spotting and support. For to carry one machine gun, you'd usually have two man, plus bunch of people just for carrying ammo and helping with the gun.

Air cooled, such as mg34 and mg42, were lighter. But still, the recoil is pretty heavy. (and the fact that for e.g. the mg42 doesn't have a handle). True, the mg34 had an assault version, but I heavily doubt that it was used unmounted that much..

edit: LMGs were pretty useful, since they were lighter and the ROF was still pretty decent. For e.g. the Lahti-Saloranta and the DP1927 are both nice lmgs. Especially the Russian DP was liked for its reliability.

[Jed]

HaJ is squad based combat and as such, we wont be featuring the Vickers unless we put it in as a fixed gun.

It was too big and needed 2-3 men to carry it plus all its kit and was usual carried by mechanised infantry on a 15 CWT truck, Universal Carrier or Austin Champ - and it still took 2 men to set it up and operate it and that wasn't quick.

The Vickers K was an aircraft gun with a high rate of fire and wasn't popular or sucessful and only used a couple of times on Commando raids. It was heavy, its magazines were unweildy and its rate of fire meant it got through ammo too quickly. As we're going for historical accuracy adding it would mean limiting it to maybe one map to fit the timeframe it was used and it's not worth it for the extra effort in resources.

And before you say the Lewis gun - that was used by the Home Guard.

British tactics were different from the German. Don't forget that post Dunkirk, the British were attacking and the Germans on the defence.The Germans favoured the MG as the centre piece with the rest of the squad supporting it. It was mainly about its superior rate of fire and getting a lot of bullets down range with suppressing fire.

On the other hand the British used the Bren LMG as a squad support weapon, preferring it's mobility, light weight, accuracy and easy of use. The British tactic was to "shoot and scoot" which the Bren was idea for.

So, in summary - HaJ will use the most "common" weapons used by each side.

[Pierog]

The class system will change with the aim of the mod as it progresses thru each version until we reach the final product.

[Ginger Lord]

There is no sniper class either, so all you ready to name your character "Pvt. Jackson (2)" and "Vassili Zaitsev (9)" best think again.

[War Pig]

Dammit, and there I was, coming up with a perfect l33tsn1p3rn4m3 of sn1p4hk1illah... :o

I'm glad that there won't be snipers in the game! :)

[ceacar99]

Air cooled, such as mg34 and mg42, were lighter. But still, the recoil is pretty heavy. (and the fact that for e.g. the mg42 doesn't have a handle). True, the mg34 had an assault version, but I heavily doubt that it was used unmounted that much..

BOTH machineguns were designed to be used as assault weapons if they used the drums(dont go thinking that the 42 didnt have drums either). the bypod wich is flexible operated as the handle, you grab both legs and hold on, wolla you got yer handle. also with a 10kg weapon, the recoil is not nearly as bad as one might think. its there but by no means uncontrollable.

i think in comparison the bren is a good weapon to fight the 34 and the 42. its easier to use and lighter but it does have a magazine intsead of a belt. hell that can be an advantage, allowing it ease to use.... its a good gun and its kinda being downplayed here.

[War Pig]

Let's just say that it isn't quite like in the movies (or in dod...).
I'll leave it at that. :wink:

[Ginger Lord]

The usefulness of a MG42 with a 50rnd drum is...not much. You have 2.5s of fire before you have to reload. Hardly ideal for an assault weapon. The '34 wasn't that much better, but at least you had closer to 4s without reloading.

Then Bren wasn't a great MG in terms of covering fire, it was way too accurate but with a semi competant team behind it, it was lethal. Magazine changes were very quick as the No2 changed the magazines, a lot quicker than changing a belt on an MG.

They balance out in various ways, the MG34 is a good defensive weapon, plonk it down and its going to kill a fair few people. The Bren is a great offensive MG, light, accurate and a good rof.

[Rome]

as long as the weapons are balanced out.

making the Bren lighter to carry would be a good option for that.

will this mod keep crosshairs?

[Ginger Lord]

Crosshairs are staying in.

[ceacar99]

consider this. in ww1, the most decorated and effective infantrymen on the commanwealth side were those armed with the chauchat, a lmg. though the weapon was extreemly unreliable it still made the difference and chauchat gunner mortality rates were low, if that can be said for anything in the war. the chauchat on full automatic fire could only pump out rounds for about 2.5 seconds. not very long but when you fire in bursts you can be fairly effective.

the reality was that it was effective because of a: large numbers and b: mobile acurate firepower. in those two senses the bren does have the mg34/42 beat but the firepower of the 34 and the 42 makes up for it. they both have LARGE overlaping zones of ability but it is a trade off. firepower for acuracy. magazine capacity for mobility. the brits honestly dont need anything other than that brengun...

anyway what was the cyclic fire rate of the bren? i dont think it lasted much longer than 3 seconds on full auto but i may be wrong....

[Ginger Lord]

500-520 rounds a minute.

Over 3.5 seconds on full auto, but using full auto was a waste of time for surpressing an area due to the accuracy. Could be used as a semi-auto rifle if you wanted it too, with a 30rnd mag.

[ceacar99]

i thought you could supress an area with just about anything as long as you get enough firepower out. a couple of rifles or a lmg can work pretty well. hell one of the reasons why the chauchat was so effective in the first world war is cus it would suppress one target, a mg enplacement and people with grenades would flank it and blow it up. it worked pretty well, so well that the tactic is used to this day. "fire and manouver". so no the bren wont be able to suppress a large area but if you need a german mg out of the picture you can probally do it well with a bren gun.

[Rome]

Crosshairs are staying in.

I'm glad.

what about the health meter?