Britsh Sidearm

[DerMann]

I don't know if this issue has been discussed, but what is the sidearm(s) for the British going to be?

Please, for God's sake, don't make it the Enfield No.2 Mk1(*), it would be historically inaccurate if it were. The Webley Mk.IV would be a more suitable choice because after Enfield "took" the design of the Mk.IV, Webley was denied a contract. However, Enfield could not keep up production and Webley was asked to help, which they did. Enfield No.2 Mk.1(*)'s were quite rare in combat, and were usually issued to tank commanders, commandos, etc..

Most Bren crews and such were issued Mk.IV's or Mk.VI's. And I do believe that most of the officers had Mk.VI's.

Mk.VI:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/webley_mk6.jpg

Mk.IV:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/webley_mk4_38.jpg

Enfield No.2 Mk.1:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/enfield_no2_mk1.jpg

Enfield No.2 Mk.1:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/enfield_no2_mk1_star.jpg

-DerMann

[engineer]

Sidearms haven't even been added yet. Which is good, because it's going to be between the Enfield .38 revolver, the .455 Webley and the Inglis Hi-Power.

[DerMann]

Kind of good to hear, I guess.

If you choose the Mk.VI (.455) over the Mk.IV(.38), it'll be nice way to kind of balance out the game because the capacity of the pistol is limited to six, but each shot is quite powerful ,compared the the German pistol (don't know which one you're using) which has 8 shots and they're not exactly "powerful". Either way, Webleys aren't notable for their accuracy. They were designed to be used at about 20-30 meters or less. After that it's like spitting in the wind. The Mk.VI fires a .455 265 grain projectile that travels at about 650 fps. The Mk.IV fires a smaller .38 200 grain projectile at about 650 fps. The Mk.II Cartridge it fires is an improvement over the older Mk.I cartridge in that it uses cordite instead of black powder. Since less powder is required to propel the bullet, the length of the casi

I just so happen to own a Mk.VI, so I can provide pictures and descriptions for future animations.

-DerMann

[Ginger Lord]

Sidearms arn't in, and they may not be added. The gameplay is fine without them to be honest. The majority of the infantry were not allowed to carry them. The only people to get them were really the officers as as there is no specific officer class at the moment it does not fit.

[DerMann]

Well from the screen shots I've seen, you havea Bren class. Most, if not all, Bren gunners were issued sidearms.

[Ginger Lord]

A Bren gunner should not need a sidearm if he was issued with it, the only use for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you shouldn't have stopped using.

I've read various manuals and one in particular (1944 iirc) said sidearms were only officially given to Officers only. However most soldiers found them on the battlefield. A well training Bren Gunner has no need for a sidearm and the extra weight he would have to carry with it, on top of his Bren Gun, its ammo and all his own gear.

In testing I don't think any of us has needed a pistol yet, in the rare occasion we've lived long enough to use all our ammunition up the weapons usually been ditched for something lying nearby.

[readers digest]

id be interested to know what the loadout for the english is going to be.....

[Rome]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_weapons_of_the_United_Kingdom #Pistols

maybe that will help.

[DerMann]

Wikipedia doesn't mention it, but all the revolvers up untill the Mk.V were black powder and fired the Mk.I cartridge, which was longer than the Mk.II cartridge, which burned cordite.

Also, don't base your animations off of DoD or CoD because they're completely wrong.

[King_Nothing]

Most, if not all, Bren gunners were issued sidearms.

They weren't.

[Pierog]

Also, don't base your animations off of DoD or CoD because they're completely wrong.

our animations will be based off of real life, not other games.

[HellSpike]

lets give them a rocket launcher for a sidearm

[jackx]

Since you mentioned pick-ups, how will they work? Just running over the weapon, or something more complicated? Also, will the fact that if you pick up an enemy weapon, you're most likely not used to operating it be factored in?

Also, I wouldn't say that 9x19mm is in any way not "powerful" when it comes to unarmored "normal" (i.e. not-drugged-up) targets.


And just out of interest - how long does it take to draw a pistol from its holster compared to reloading the Bren? Because that'd be the only use I could see for a sidearm ( if they were indeed issued with one) - if you run out of ammo in a cqb situation, you draw the pistol...

[ceacar99]

it reminds me of playing the specialists. i'd run around with something like a m60 and a glock 18. id pump ammo out and when i found myself in trouble i'd just press the ditch weapon key and the game would automatically pull out my pistol. it proved quicker that way that pressing the button and clicking to switch or even the fast weapon key...

perhaps in ham and jam the few classes that have side arms could have a "quick draw sidearm" key. normally switching weapons would mean the player has to first put away his current weapon(a process that does take time, not to long but time is precious). the quick draw side arm key would ditch the player's current weapon and draw the side arm emediatly. that would make it so the player can have rapid acess to his backup weapon in emergancies.

however it is my understanding that very few if any classes will have side arms in ham and jam so this might be useless. the only class i can see having a side arm(since there isnt a sniper class according to my understanding) is the mg34 class. however the mg34 is a gpmg, like the 42 so it can be fired on the move with decent effectiveness, maybe not as effective as a bren but still effective.

[Ginger Lord]

At the moment there are no pistols in the game so can't say how long things take. Plays fine as is.

Picking up a weapon will be a system of dropping current and "using" dropped weapons on floor, we just need to make it so you only have one primary weapon at a time.

[DerMann]

Also, don't base your animations off of DoD or CoD because they're completely wrong.

our animations will be based off of real life, not other games.

Well I think both of those games tried to base them off real life, and look what happened...

Also, in regard to switching times, it took me about seven seconds to sling my Mauser over my back, undo the strap on my holster, and pull back the hammer on my Webley (they were both unloaded, and in a safe direction, don't flip out).

Also, the Webley holster seems to hinder movement a bit. I find it harder to sit and crouch with it on (or just even bend down to pick something up).

[ceacar99]

its all about where you place your holster. i like to have the holster for my pistol strapped at a 45 across my diaphram. with average sized pistols it doesnt hinder me at all and i can draw VERY quickly with it there. for bigger pistols(like the c96) a placement over the heart is probally the best. its harder to remove there but a large pistol across your diaphram may make it hard to do certian things, i dunno....

either way right now there arent realy gonna be pistols. i hope that IF they get added in the future there will be a system something like i suggested to make them effective. a pistol isnt a primary arm. its a "oh shit!" weapon that you fall back on when you absolutely need a gun that instant but for some reason your rifle/smg/mg is inoperable.

[Blue]

Not to go off topic but regarded animations.

Make sure for the MG's the supporting hand goes under the butt, not on top of the receiver

Like sho
http://nono06.hautetfort.com/album/mg42/cover-mg3lehrgang.jpg

[Panz]

it can of course go on top also, when firing an MG42 or 34 wether prone or on a bench you tend to lean into it, hand cupped on top of the butt helps. whats cool is having a static position and sticking it on a laffette mount and letting that do all the work :)

Panz

Been around automatic weapons wayyyy to long

[Hugo.B]

Make sure for the MG's the supporting hand goes under the butt, not on top of the receiver
HaJ image: (http://www.hamandjam.org/archives/23)

Any particular difference in hand position? Does it matter whether it goes under or over?

H.B.

[fess]

That link leads back to the homepage?

[Hugo.B]

I couldn't get it to link specific to the "News for December 2006" pictures, instead it reverts to the homepage.
I meant to have the link point to the pic. with the soldier holding the MG.

EDIT: I think interest in this mod must be accelerating:
Most users ever online was 18, 4th January 2007 at 05:29 PM.
It has changed twice since I joined.

H.B.

[Panz]

HaJ image: (http://www.hamandjam.org/archives/23)

Any particular difference in hand position? Does it matter whether it goes under or over?

H.B.


I really dont think it was, im just going off Wehrmacht footage and my own personal use. One thing that matters.. but i have no idea if your gonna do this, when you shoot a mg34 or 43 you are supposted to spread your legs in a Y shape while on your belly, this helps with you moving back when firing. The feet as as an achor, I guess this would only matter in a 3rd person view

[Blue]

The supporting hand is supposed to grip the bottom of the buttstock and hold it into the shoulder. On the MG34/42, pressing down on the feed-cover can appariently cause jams.

[Jed]

MG34 has a little "nub" on the bottom of the stock which you grab with your thumb and forefinger of the left hand. The Bren MkI actually had a fold out handle attached to the bottom of the stock you would hold but in th MkII it was removed and you out your left hand on the top and rested your cheek on it - although you have to be careful not to obsure the rear sight.

[Hugo.B]

Thanks for the info, I'll remember next time I fire a Bren....or an MG42....
Mightn't be long, either.

H.B.

[Jed]

Heh it's been 15 years since I was a Bren gunner.

[Ginger Lord]

Go to the Royal Armouries in Leeds and fire one....


Its electronic recoil though :\

[Hugo.B]

Like your new sig. GL
Its electronic recoil though :\
I don't think they'd even let us fire blanks. :(

[Ginger Lord]

You need a Section 5 licence for that, which only gun shop owners can get as well as armourers.

I only have a section 2 licence so no fun for me. Although if its a single shot converted blank/live Bren, I'm fine :D

[Jed]

I applied for a section 5 once, fugging hell what an experience. Two "suits" from the Ministry came and interviewed me. Keep in mind this was a loooong time before 9/11 so they weren't as uptight back then but man they wanted to know a lot of stuff about me.

In the end I figure I didn't want a blank firing Bren that much :(

[Hugo.B]

Yep, they just spoil all the fun.
I know it sounds very American, but like them, I believe that:
You take away an individual's freedom with his gun.
Hand gun crime is on the rise since they out-lawed them, too.
This is a bit off-topic. I didn't even mention a b**n!

H.B.

[Agent Smith]

You wouldn't believe how rediculous the gun laws are in Australia. Fair enough they need to be strict for real steel weapons, but if you want to own an airsoft gun the laws are exactly the same. It's like they took the gun laws, which ban semi-auto's, auto's, pump-actions, and for pistols anything above a 10 round capacity, then replaced all references to real guns with airsoft guns. Replica laws are really strict as well.

I've recently put this to the test though, having found a distributer in australia that sells replica blue guns for military and law enforcement purposes. All places that sell these restrict the sale to official government departments only, except for this one :). I've just purchased a replica HK USP 9mm compact, all you need is a credit card. Should arrive in the next couple days.

I'm going down to the local cop shop this afternoon to make some enquiries about replica licensing.

[Hugo.B]

blue guns
A name for look-alikes with a red muzzle tips?

[Agent Smith]

They're exact plastic moulds of the real thing. Except they are moulded out of a bright blue, or sometimes red, inert plastic. They also have some steel re-inforcing internally. Basically they look and feel exactly (well, pretty close) like the real thing, even have the same balance and weight, except they are bright blue. Cops and the military use them for training because they are so close to the real thing, except for the fact they are bright blue moulded plastic with no moving parts.

Here's a company that makes them.

http://www.blueguns.com/

Can you believe these things are essentially illegal, unless you have a license for replica's. It's absolute rubbish. Basically the law is based not on one what the object is, a hunk of plastic, but what you could potentially do with it if your an idiot, i.e. try and rob someone. If I made a replica out of a hunk of wood I'd need a freaking license.

[Jed]

They're exact plastic moulds of the real thing. Except they are moulded out of a bright blue, or sometimes red, inert plastic. They also have some steel re-inforcing internally. Basically they look and feel exactly (well, pretty close) like the real thing, even have the same balance and weight, except they are bright blue. Cops and the military use them for training because they are so close to the real thing, except for the fact they are bright blue moulded plastic with no moving parts.

So their bright blue then? Just checking, you weren't clear on that point...

[Ginger Lord]

lol

I take it the bad guys get bright red ones then.

[Hugo.B]

That is absolutely insane! You need a license for a lump of bright blue plastic...
Mebbe they are afraid you'll paint it black and use it to threaten people. :icon_rawr:
But I think I'd much prefer a baseball bat. :)

H.B.

[Agent Smith]

I'm still struggling to comprehend the need to license a hunk of bright blue plastic, which would probably explain the over emphasis on the bright blue plastic :).

To borrow a quote from Snatch:

"That six pound piece of shit stuck in your trousers would do more damage if you fed it to him. "

Barring that or hitting someone with it, I doubt I'll be able to do much damage.

Of course I do intend on painting it up like the real thing :).

[Agent Smith]

Bit of an update. They're out of stock at the moment, so it won't be coming for another couple of weeks. I found out about the delay from the police and military liason :). And I'm a web designer with no links AT ALL to the police or military. And these things are only available for sale to the police and military. This is so dodgy its hilarious.

[zone trooper]

I just looked at the guns and stuff and it looks awesome, many of the guns i saw were from either WW2 games, Counter Strike or Black.